NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/misc-part1/2657

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From: [e-mail] (Gary Alan Peake)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: The March Amiga?
Date: 22 Jan 1996 22:20:07 -0800
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>
>George Noel pooh-poohed my membership in Team AMIGA because he thinks
>that I'm anti-Amiga.  Hell, I don't even own another box other than my
>2000!  And I don't think that we're seeing different leaves on the same
>tree, but we're disagreeing in the type of fertilizer that AT's
>spreading on that tree.  You think it's SuperGrow; I think it's
>bullshit.

It's not the questions that upset me, but rather the terminology.
'Bullshit'? That's kinda strong ... for someone who believes in and is
supporting the Amiga. That's where the rub comes in ...

>GP> Maybe the difference between me and some here is that I believe them when
>GP> they say they see a bright future for the Amiga and are going to make it a
>GP> household name. So far, from a business standpoint (again, my opinion)
>GP> they are making the right decisions for cashflow and R&D purposes.
>
>That's where most of our differences lie in.  You're a natural
>optimist; I'm not only a natural pessimist, but a cynic as well.  I
>believe that only with specific correct moves, most of which I've
>outlined in our discussion over the months we've had it, can AT get any
>sort of foot in the door, especially in NA.  They have to design,
>build, and properly market the proverbial better mousetrap, and
>especially concentrate on the marketing.  I don't begrudge them the
>cash they're earning; I just begrudge the fact that they seem to be
>unwilling to spend money to make money (in the area of marketing, that
>is; they've been doing it in other areas, including, apparently, R&D).

You are, of course, talking about 'in the North American market'? Many times
it has been said by Amiga Technologies that North America is NOT what they
are after TODAY. Today they are after the European community, R&D, and PPC.
Many times they have insinuated and outright said that when they get the
necessary production, R&D, PPC and a strategic NA partner ... we will SEE an
Amiga push here. To them, I'm sure it's simple math.

>GP> Why contract out the coding as they are?
>
>Does that scare you a bit?  We're still not sure about the
>subcontractor for the OS.  I'd love to know what AT told them about the
>requirements for OS4.

No, it doesn't 'scare' me. Dr Kittle told us here that Amiga Technologies is
in FULL CONTROL of the coding being done. There are no 'Fast Eddies' waiting
to sneak some crud into the code.


>GP> Why keep fervently looking for a NA 'partner'?
>
>But in what capacity?  Financial?  R&D?  Mass-market distribution?
>Or to eventually sell out?

None of the above ... the North American 'strategic partner' will assume
responsibility for marketing and distribution of Amiga products in North
America. This, too, has been said many times by Amiga Technologies people
here and in some of the speeches and press releases given.

>GP> Why the 'Surfer Package' (that took extra money and time)?
>
>Well, to make money, for one thing.  Only Oracle seems to be entering
>that type of market right now.  The problem is that by providing a
>full-fledged 1200 with the Net suite, the price is significantly higher
>than Oracle's product.  And that Net suite had better be good, or the
>Surfer package (what an awful name!) will fail.

So even the good things they do are criticized? 'What an awful name'? Please
... let's hear YOUR name for the package?

>GP> The first three months I would not have argued so strongly FOR
>GP> Amiga Technologies. But, if you add up all these 'Why' type things
>GP> you will begin to see that they DO have a plan.
>
>They may have some sort of plan, but I'm still not sure what it is, AT
>isn't volunteering information, and I have reservations about the parts
>we do know about.  And I'm not alone, Gary.  You can tell just from the
>posts here.

Oh? How many of the twelve people here do NOT think Amiga Technologies has a
plan? How many of the twelve DO think Amiga Technologies has a plan? (HINT:
See Amiga Technologies speeches and press releases for plans).

>There are questions that have to be asked when it comes to this
>subject.  We as Amiga users have incredible power over the decisions
>made at AT due to the fact that we're the ones buying this system.

Think about the absurdity of this statement! Because we 'bought' the system
in the past, Amiga Technologies is now 'obligated' to listen to us?
By this logic GM, Ford, & Chrysler should be supplying their buyers with
some way to pre-accept or pre-reject next year's models? Sure all companies
live or die by public acceptance, but very few (if any) design a product
AFTER consulting past buyers.

>GP> For this year, Amiga Technologies should be chasing
>GP> the new 'entry level' people with the 1200 Surfer Package. These entry
>GP> level users now will be what adds to the current user base when the PPC's
>GP> come out. THAT will make this a viable solution again.
>
>But can AT cut through the M$ brainwash factory that "more power =
>better"?  Or will the public see the 1200 package (I refuse to call it
>"Surfer") as a toy?

Refuse to use it's name, that's your perogative, but it's STILL the name.
How about if we call you Ralph? And how many 'toys' (as you like to put it)
can access the nets 'out of the box'? I happen to think it's a fabulous
idea. We'll see soon enough if I'm right or wrong.

> >I think that these questions are valid, but corporations, like any other
> >physical entity, tend to follow the path of least resistance:

No, corporations tend to try to do what makes them money. That's what they
do ... make money.


> >1) By buying the 1200s and 4000Ts out there, we are contributing to the
> >coffers of AT's R&D efforts.  But do we want outdated machines?
> >Especially with the PPC announcement.  Amiga owners are patient by
> >nature when it comes to the system.  How many people won't wait a year?
>
>GP> See, made my point. We WILL wait a year. They are/should be chasing new,
>GP> entry level buyers who will expand into that new PPC later on.
>
>These are rhetorical questions, Gary...

So only you can make points or answer them?

>
>I didn't make a point.  I asked a question about current Amiga owners,
>since they're the only ones who seem to know about the 1200s/4000Ts.

No 'new' buyers have bought a 1200 or 4000? That's strange! And if there are
'some' new buyers, where did they hear about the Amiga? You have apparently
totally missed what Amiga Technologies is doing ... filling up pent-up
demand AND trying to attract NEW buyers with the Magic & Surfer packages.

> >2) By buying the 1200s and 4000Ts, are we showing approval as a group
> >toward this technology, which most everyone here says is outdated?  If
> >we are, will AT also think we approve and delay, or even worse, not
> >really bother with the PPC for a while?
>
>GP> No long term money can be made from current models. Those of us buying the
>GP> new stock are just upgrading from 500-600 or ECS or we are the ones who
>GP> wanted a 4000 and couldn't get one back when.
>
>Again, rhetorical questions.  But you must admit that it's cheaper not
>to do R&D if these models are selling.

Wrong rhetorical answer! It is death to NOT do R&D and apparently Amiga
Technologies is well aware of this.

> >3) If we wait and not buy the systems available now, will AT go
> >belly-up, in which case we'll never see a new Amiga system?  It looks
> >like Escom is looking to see whether or not AT will sink or float, and
> >if it starts to sink, will Escom pull the trigger?
>
>GP> Nope, too much invested now.
>
>Guess what I'm going to say?  You didn't have to answer these.  I just
>wanted to clarify the questions that a lot of people are asking.

Again, of the twelve people here, how many are asking these questions?

>So a corporation is going to keep a money-losing subsidiary afloat in
>order to lose more money?  I hope the German tax code is as lax about
>businesses as the US's is.  That's the only reason I'd do something
>like that.

Who has said that Amiga Technologies is losing money? I haven't heard or
read that anywhere. Facts speak volumes! I do believe that Amiga
Technologies is lessening the 'load' on Escom's finances at the moment!

>GP> >I hope that none of these are true, and that AT does have the best in
>GP> >mind for the Amiga, but illustrated like that, it is a no-win
>GP> >situation.  The question has to be put out, and I hope that
>GP> >Kittel/Bourdin can refute this line of argument.

No need for them to. From the CEO of Escom on down, they have ALL refuted
the questions BEFORE you thought to ask them. How many times have they ALL
said that Escom/Amiga Technologies is in 'for the long run'?

>Notice you didn't respond to this section, Gary...

I didn't see any reason to. Too far fetched.
>
>GP> >Well, we can argue about the 1200 until the cows come home.  I don't
>GP> >think it's "excellent", but it's good on a marketing standpoint for
>GP> >attracting people to eventually buy the bigger systems.
>
>GP> Again, my point exactly. And what better can it get (at it's level) than a
>GP> web surfing ability. Again, an excellent entry level computer. Give em a
>GP> taste of the Internet, then tell them next year how much faster, better,
>GP> etc the PPC is. Migration right to the PPC this way.
>
>It's not "excellent", dammit!  It's a deficient computer system from an
>engineering standpoint.  It's a very draconian proposition.  It's feast
>or famine with a 1200; either a user gets sick of its low capabilities
>and lack of ease in upgrading and ditches Amiga, or upgrades.  A great
>gamble, but one that could pay off.

Read 'in context' PLEASE!!! 'It's an excellent ENTRY LEVEL COMPUTER' and it
is!! I don't know engineering from mud samples, but I will tell you that
from a users standpoint, almost everything out right now is draconian and an
engineering nightmare! Took a mid-level computer smart (professional person
with a college degree) about 6 hours to finally get NT configured right for
her 486/66. Care to hear some of her woes with modems in her Packard Bell?
Horror stories abound on EVERY computer if you are into that. By the same
token, I hear many stories of how great all the same computers are to other
people? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the ugly stick can hit
anyone without notice!

> >The biggest market for the Amiga isn't NA, but NA is still the biggest
> >market in the world for computers (until the EU becomes a little more
> >technologically sophisticated and capable in all its member countries;
> >no insult, Eurofriends, because you have been catching up quickly, but
> >we in NA are still the biggest).  The PPC Amiga can make a killing
> >here, but there's a limited time frame.  It has to be done and
> >introduced prior to the abolition of the P6.  In order to make inroads
> >into the computer market, AT has to gain the worldwide acceptance of a
> >DOS or Mac box, and that means NA.  They can't focus simply on Europe,
> >unless they want to accept second-class citizenship in Cyberworld.
>
>GP> Lot's of changes are going on with our brethren overseas and the way telco
>GP> works, etc. I look for the European market to get much bigger on the
>GP> Internet. The Surfer package will fit right in with that movement.
>
>But you didn't answer my point about NA, did you?  That was only the
>purpose of my statement, after all.  Until telecommunications systems
>in the EU are fully deregulated and demonopolized, telecom there won't
>grow as fast as you think.  My proof is Britain; it's virtually the
>only point I agreed with the Thatcherites.

Point answered then ... it has been said that the PPC will be here around
CEBit (March 1997). More rumor than fact, I'm sure. But that's what we have
to go with at the moment. If this isn't soon enough for you, then we are
defeated! I am patient enough to wait for Amiga Technologies and see what we
see. In the meantime, my 3000/25 is humming along nicely on 2.1 ... I may in
fact go to 3.1 any day now. After that I am planning on contacting Softwood
about a PPC card for my 3000. Then, the next step is the PPC Amiga for me.

If you are looking for a BIG PUSH into North America beginning tomorrow,
don't hold your breath. Amiga Technologies has said more than once that it
ain't gonna happen that way. The PPC is their inroad into the North American
market. THAT competes!!

> >No, what I really want to see, Gary, was your justification on the
> >technological end of it all.  I wanted to see you fly through hoops
> >saying that this was the greatest thing in the universe and that
> >everyone at AT were geniuses for putting the 1300 out.  However, I
> >don't think you'd really do that, even if you are the most gormless AT
> >camp follower on occasion.  But the disguises are off.  If AT does the
> >1300 for money, that's perfectly fine and a good thing in the minds of
> >everyone here.  But trying to disguise that with other reasons would be
> >disingenuous.  Glad you and I both see it that way.

Money is what corporations exist for ... no other reason! Only a fool would
believe otherwise. This said, there are a lot of Amiga fanatics at Amiga
Technologies. They feel just as deeply about the Amiga as some of us do.
Some people do DO things out of altruism. If you fail to believe the last
statement, get a look at the 'deathbed vigil'. I've never been fortunate
enough to actually see it, but I have heard that many tears were shed over
the Amiga by those who put their hearts and souls into it.

>GP> Still think the Surfer stuff is going to do great! That in itself is
>GP> something we've never had.
>
>I don't think it's going to do as great as you think it is.  It's going
>to be a fair-to-middling success at best.  It makes the fact that
>they'd better not make any false moves with the PPC even more
>important.

Time will tell ...

>GP>  TEAM AMIGA is a grassroots
>GP>  movement designed to provide
>GP>  support to all Amiga users
>GP>  and to Amiga Technologies!
>
>Could you please define "support"?  Is constructive criticism part of
>your definition (you yourself have even acknowledged that my criticism
>has been uniformly constructive)?

I am a believer in 'constructive criticism' and want my employees at work to
use lots of it with me. BUT, there is a point when criticism becomes
destructive rather than constructive. My definition of 'support' is probably
much different from yours I would think? Support ... buying of products,
complimenting the good points, suggesting work arounds for points we
disagree on in a 'constructive, unobtrusive, non-belligerant way, word of
mouth advertising, etc.

What I do is this: show my agreement with the good things that Amiga
Technologies is doing by supporting them here (much to the dislike of
several), buy Amiga products from 3rd party vendors that are supporting us
by being here, showing and telling people every chance I get about the
things my Amiga's have done for years with ease, and using email to show my
discomfort with things that I don't feel are productive for me and the
people I know that use an Amiga, advertising with my taglines with every
message I post here and on Fidonet, helping people that I am qualified to
help get around problems that someone helped me with in the past.


  The last thing Team AMIGA should be,
>and I think that even Rick would agree, is a hotbed of monolithic,
>uncritical opinion.  If Amiga owners didn't have differences with the
>company that produced the machine, we'd be abandoning an eleven-year
>tradition.

Oh, this is true. Amiga users have always been a horde of loud-mouthed,
muck-raking, swasbuckling fanatics just waiting to pounce on the next
announcement of granduer from the Amigas' parent company. BUT, let one clone
user parry a sword of dis-honor our way and they'd find his/her head
swinging limbless from the nearest tree!


Gary
-----------------------------------------
[e-mail]    'Mystic Meg'   |  TEAM AMIGA is a grassroots
                                         |  movement designed to provide
Avid Supporter of Amiga Technologies     |  support to all Amiga users
                                         |  and to Amiga Technologies!
Charter Member ---> *TEAM AMIGA*         |
-----------------------------------------


... Oxymoron: Personal Computer

-*- ASTG 1.9